Bernard de Dramelay-Tramelay

Here is the major link between the Rougemonts and Knights Templar.

Jon Presco

Jon Presco <braskewitz <at>>
Subject: The Knight Templar Family of Dramelay, De La Roche, and Rougemont
Newsgroups: gmane.culture.templar.rosemont
Date: Saturday 18th November 2006 18:28:15 UTC (over 10 years ago)

The Knight Templar Family of Dramelay, De La Roche, and Rougemont

(Images: Knight Templar chapel at Dramelay/Tramelay)

The families of Dramelay/Tramelay, De La Roche, and Rougemont are 
joined together by many marriages. They are linked with the Shroud 
of Turin and the Knights Templar. In the family tree above we can 
more clearly see how they are the premiere Templar family. It is 
highly likely Denis de Rougemont descends from this family.

"Fromond de Dramelay, sn de Neufchatel, etc, fl 1171/1213; m. N de 

"Dunod de Charnage traced the Shroud to archbishop Amedée de 
Tramelay. Babinet's interpretation is that, fearing to retain it, 
Amedée turned it over to the Templars, an order independent and 
secret, created for the protection of the holy places."

"In 1265, de Molay was received into the Order at Beaune by Humbert 
de Pairaud, Visitor of France and England, and by French Master 
Amaury de la Roche. 

Geoffroi of Charny, preceptor of commanderies of the Templar Order 
in NormandyThis article is about the Templar who was burned at the 
stake in 1314 along with Jacques de Molay in 1314

Geoffroi was accepted into the Order of Knights Templar (at the age 
of "sixteen, seventeen or thereabouts") by brother Amaury de la 
Roche, the preceptor of France in Étamps of the diocese of Sens. 

Present at the ceremony were brother Jean le Franceys, preceptor of 
Pédenac.Templar commandery For his nephew who died in 1356, see 
Geoffroi de Charny. Geoffrey de Charney, or Geoffroy de Charnay, was 
Preceptor of Normandy for the Knights Templar.De Charney's nephew 
was Geoffroi de Charny, whose widow first put the Shroud of Turin on 
display later in the 14th century.

"Babinet seems to urge a Templar acquisition, not as early as 1139, 
but later, in 1205, via Othon de la Roche, Duke of Athens, who sent 
the relic to Besançon's Archbishop Amedée de Tramelay (1192-1219). 
This latter was related to Bernard de Tramelay, fourth Templar 
Master (1152-53)The head of a man adored by the Templars, so similar 
to the Mandylion/Shroud of Christ, was stolen from Constantinople by 
the Crusaders and then disappeared from Athens. Othon, duke of 
Athens, never returned it but in the château de Ray at Rigney, near 
Besançon, is a small wooden chest whose dimensions would be right 
for the Shroud folded in 96 layers . Bergeret (CIELT Rome Symposium 
1993) thought it was the chest used to transport the Shroud from 
Athens to France. Babinet has earlier agreed with French scholar 
Jean Longnon (Journ. des savants, Jan-Mar 1973, 61-80) that Othon 
was never wed to Isabel/Elisabeth de Ray, but rather to 
Isabel/Elisabeth de Chappes. This would indicate that his title, 
seigneur de Ray, was paternally and not maritally inherited. It also 
signals that Jeanne de Vergy, second wife of Geoffrey I de Charny, 
was not descendent of Othon de la Roche, Duke of Athens and onetime 
possessor of the Shroud." 

"Dunod de Charnage traced the Shroud to archbishop Amedée de 
Tramelay. Babinet's interpretation is that, fearing to retain it, 
Amedée turned it over to the Templars, an order independent and 
secret, created for the protection of the holy places. The 
possession by the Templars is the only explanation plausible and 
coherent for the 150 years from 1205 to 1355. Oddly and 
unnecessarily, Babinet exonerates the Templars of heresy. Also 
included in this publication is an article by Dorothy Crispino 'The 
Shroud at Besançon' which very authoritatively weighs in the balance 
(and finds wanting), theories that the Shroud may have been at 
Besançon before its emergence in Lirey in the mid-1950s. Brother 
Geoffroy de ChanayIt had been born about 1251.About 1269, it was 
received in the order with approximately 17 or 18 years.Geoffroy de 
Chanay: Frater Gaudfridus de Charnaio alias Charneio. Templier 
receipt in Etampes, by Amaury of the Rock in the presence of Jean 
brother Franceys, tutor of Paris.
Sires de Neufchatel-en-Bourgogne

Fromond de Dramelay; m.N de Montfaucon, Dame de Neufchatel; They 
probably were parents of two brothers: 
A1. Hugues I "le Connetable", Constable to Ct Gerard of Burgundy 
B1. Guy de Drameley 
B2. Hugues II de Dramelay; he and his brother were ancestors of the 
Sires de Dramelay, Jura
A2. Humbert de Dramelay, sn de Neufchatel, etc; m.NN 
B1. Fromond de Dramelay, sn de Neufchatel, etc, fl 1171/1213; m. N 
de Rougemont 
C1. Thiebaut I de Neufchatel, sn de Neufchatel, Vcte de Baume, Sire 
de Jonvelle, etc, +1268, bur Lieucroissant; 1m: Petronille, Dame de 
la Ferte-Sous-Vadans; 2m: 1238 Elizabeth, Dame de Jonvelle; all kids 
were by 1m. 

D1. Richard de Neufchatel, sn de Clemont, +1259, bur Lieucroissant; 
m.before 1255 Marguerite de Montfaucon 
G2. Eudes de la Roche, sn de Chatillon, test 1353, bur St-Hippolyte; 
m.Jeanne de Frolois, Dame de Marigny 
H1. Marguerite, Dame de Marigny, +1378; 1m: Guillaume de Thoire 
(+1345); 2m: Jacques de Vienne, sn de Longvy (+1372)
G3. Androin, Cardinal, Abbot of Cluny, +of the plague at Viterbo 
G4. Achillande; m.Vauthier de Vienne, sn de Mirebel (+1344)
F2. Etiennette, Dame de Soye, +ca 1305; m.before 1299 Aime de Ray
E2. Etiennette, Abbess of St.Jean, Autun, +1278 
E3. Bonne, Abbess of St.Jean, Autun, +1294
D2. Jacques de la Roche, Bp of Autun 
D3. Hue de la Roche, a canon in Autun 1286 
D4. Nicole de la Roche, Abbess of Baume-les-Dames 1268/71 
D5. Marguerite de la Roche; m.Richard de Gleres-Montjoie
B3. Amedee de Dramelay, Archbishop of Besancon, +1220 
 Lords: They go down from the sovereign Counts of Burgundy. 

Bernard de Dramelay: (1134) figure at the court of Renaud III of 
Bourgogne.Il goes to the crusade préchée by Saint-Bernard in 1147, 
fights with the head office of Ascalon, and obtains the 
distinguished title of Large Maitre of the Temple of Midsummer's Day 
of Jerusalem. 
Hugues de Dramelay: (1175) He is constable of the county of 

Amédée de Dramelay becomes Archevêque of Besancon at the end of the 
XII eme century. Put to the test by its political options, it was 
locked up with the Castle of Montbeliard a few months in 1199. 
Returned to freedom, it goes back on its seat, but the count Etienne 
of Burgundy often devastated his fields. Wearied troubles which its 
canons caused him, it left for the crusade in 1218 and died out of 
Holy Land in 1220. In him the family of the Lords de Dramelay died 
Etienne of Burgundy, owner of Baronnie d' Orgelet, joins together 
Baronnie de Dramelay with his fields. The descendants of Guillaume 
de Dramelay, nephew of Bernard, do not preserve any right on this 
 de DRAMELAY, Fromont II Sexe: Masculin Naissance : vers 1145 
Décès : vers 1213 Occupation : seigneurParents: 
Père: de DRAMELAY, Humbert 
de ROUGEMONT, N Sexe: Féminin Naissance : vers 1170 Parents: 
Père: de ROUGEMONT, Thibaut Mère: N, Alaïs 
de NEUFCHATEL, Thibault Ier 
de NEUFCHATEL, Thibault Ier Sexe: Masculin Naissance : vers 1195 
Décès : 1268 Inhumation : 1268 à Geney,25250,Doubs,Franche-
Comté,FRANCE Occupation : vicomteParents: 
Père: de DRAMELAY, Fromont II Mère: de ROUGEMONT, N 
Mariage: 1238 Conjoint: 
de JONVELLE, Élisabeth Sexe: Féminin Naissance : vers 1215 Décès : 
après 1268 
de DAMPIERRE, Pétronille (Perrette) 

Richard de NEUFCHATEL, Eudes Sexe: Masculin Naissance : vers 1220 
Décès : vers 1280 Occupation : doyen

Bernard de Tremelay 

Bernard de Tramelay (died August 16, 1153) was the fourth Grand 
Master of the Knights Templar.

He was born in the castle of Tramelay near Saint-Claude in the Jura. 
According to Du Cange, he succeeded a certain Hugues as Master of 
the Temple, although this Hugues is otherwise unknown. He was 
elected Grand Master in June of 1151, after the abdication of 
Everard des Barres, who had returned to France following the Second 
Crusade. King Baldwin III of Jerusalem granted him the ruined city 
of Gaza, which Bernard rebuilt for the Templars.
In 1153 the Templars participated in the Battle of Ascalon, a 
fortress at that time controlled by Egypt. The Templars constructed 
a siege tower, which was burned down by the Egyptian soldiers inside 
Ascalon. The wind caught the flames and part of the walls of Ascalon 
burned down as well.

According to William of Tyre, knights of the Order rushed through 
the breach without Baldwin's knowledge while Bernard prevented other 
crusaders from following, as he did not want to share the spoils of 
the city with the king. Bernard and about forty of his Templars were 
killed by the larger Egyptian garrison. Their bodies were displayed 
on the ramparts and their heads were sent to the sultan.

In a differing account by a Damascene chronicler in the city, the 
breach of the wall is mentioned as a pre-cursor to the fall of the 
city; he makes no mention of the incident with the Templars. 
Regardless of which account is believed, Bernard was killed during 
the fighting.

A few days later, Baldwin captured the fortress; shortly thereafter, 
the Templars elected André de Montbard as their Grand Master.
There are two theories that relate to the Templars having been 
involved with the Shroud, one, which would support the authenticity 
of the Shroud and another, which would refute it.
In 1204 the Crusaders sacked the city of Constantinople. Among them 
were the Knights Templar, whom some scholars contend took the Burial 
shroud of Jesus from the city. 

To support this theory, author Ian Wilson who wrote the book "The 
Shroud of Turin: Burial Cloth Of Jesus?" makes the claim that the 
head that the Templars were accused of worshipping was none other 
than that of Jesus. His belief is that the Shroud when folded 
depicted the head of Christ and was referred to as the "Mandylion." 
There is a painted panel at Templecombe in England that shows a 
bearded head like that, which is depicted on the Mandylion.

In their two books, "The Hiram Key" and "The Second Messiah," 
authors Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas paint a contrasting 
picture to the Mandylion theory. The authors theorize that the image 
on the Shroud of Turin is in fact that of the last Grand Master of 
the order, Jacques de Molay, who was tortured some months before his 
execution in 1307. The image on the shroud certainly does fit the 
description of De Molay as depicted in medieval wood cuts, a long 
nose, hair shoulder length and parted in the center, a full beard 
that forked at its base, not to mention the six-foot frame. De Molay 
was said to be quite tall.

However, many have criticized the theory on the basis that the 
Templar rule of order forbade the Templars from growing their hair 
long. What critics of the theory overlook is that during DeMolay's 
seven years in prison it is highly unlikely that he would have been 
afforded such luxuries as good grooming.

Knight and Lomas claim that the shroud figured in the Templars 
rituals of figurative resurrection and that DeMolay's tortured body 
was wrapped in a shroud, which the Templars kept after his death. 
Lomas and Knight further believe that lactic acid and blood from 
DeMolay's tortured body mixed with frankincense (used to whiten the 
cloth) etching his image into the shroud. 

The PEDIGREE of Humbert de DRAMELAY   Seigneur de NEUFCHATEL
Poss. HM George I's 18-Great Grandfather.       HRH Charles's 23-
Great Grandfather.       Louis XVII's 20-Great Grandfather.       HM 
Juan Carlos' 23-Great Grandfather. 

 Wife/Partner:  (missing)  Children:    

Fromond de DRAMELAY   ;   Alix de DRAMELAY 

-- Fromond de DRAMELAY 

- Humbert de DRAMELAY 
-- (Miss) de MONTFAUCON 
 His 3-Great Grandchildren:        


Born:   ?   Died:  abt. 1213 
Poss. HM George I's 18-Great Uncle.       HRH Charles's 22-Great 
Grandfather.       Louis XVII's 19-Great Grandfather.       HM Juan 
Carlos' 22-Great Grandfather. 
 Wife/Partner:         (Miss) de ROUGEMONT  Child:         Thibaut I 

-- Fromond de DRAMELAY 
-- Humbert de DRAMELAY 
-- (Miss) de MONTFAUCON 
- Fromond de DRAMELAY

About Royal Rosamond Press

I am an artist, a writer, and a theologian.
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1 Response to Bernard de Dramelay-Tramelay

  1. Reblogged this on Rosamond Press and commented:

    Shiloh, has come!

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